GeezString, how about you skip them, don't read them and ignore them?

Complaining about them says a lot about you and none of it's nice.

That would be "their", not "there". Posts make a lot more sense when the correct words are used.

Petals, as in flower. ;) Not pedals. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Yay, couldn't make it without hearing from spelling nazis who can't figure out what someone is saying if they don't use proper grammar and/or spelling. Oh, wait, you did understand what Carlos said? Then why waste your time busting his bwalls?

Responded to wrong post

Another movie she was in was "The Bishop's Wife". She was darling in that movie too. She got to work with Cary Grant, Loretta Young, David Nevin, and Monty Wooley. Great cast and great movie. It's one of my favorite Classic Christmas Movies. It's right up there with "It's a Wonderful Life", "A Christmas Story", "The Man Who Came to Dinner", "White Christmas" and "A Christmas Carol with Alastair Sim".

What a shame her life took such a turn after her parents passed away.

A little harsh but still funny...

Your right! The sweet release of death removes all of our problems…err…and all of life's pleasures too.

Oh, I get it now. You're talking about an afterlife, right? In that case, no, there are no rewards on the other side of life, because there is no other side of life. We are nothing more than organic machines, and when a microwave oven breaks it doesn't move on to an appliance afterlife.

When we die, the being that was us ends. That's all there is to it. We are nothing more than our "meat". There is no transcendent soul. If there was, damage to our brains couldn't change who we are on a fundamental level, but such things happen all the time.

On the plus side, you can now appreciate the irony of the movie "Blade Runner".

Zen-HYdra, my dear brother...

you are in for a big surprise.....read MANY LIVES, MANY MASTERS.....also read BEYOND THE LIGHT by PMH ATWater....

Or ANGELS by Rudolph Steiner....

if you don't get ready, you will just go into shock when you cross over....NOt GOOD EITHER!!!

Bryce D. Anderson,

I'll bite. Please explain to me how I am in for a "big surprise" upon dying.

I would love to see any credible evidence you have of an afterlife, angels, ghosts, gods, demons, magic, miracles, or any supernatural phenomenon. There isn't any, because none of those things exist.

It would be awesome if we lived in a magical universe of unicorns and magical parental figures, but we don't. Pretending that there is cosmic justice at the end of our lives doesn't make it so.

Question: If you had cancer, would you solely pray to be miraculously cured, or would you seek a cure through modern medicine?

Zen-Hydra:

People make belief and faith into such a complicated issue and thus put down everyone's spiritual connection to a higher power. When we are given free will, that is exactly what it is - free from interference by God. There are consequences for every action. There are horrible things that happen in life e.g., an airplane crash - you know - @!$%# happens. God does not cause it or allow it to happen, it just is. When a person has faith it is not in the airplane or the pilot, it is in God's love and promise that we will have life everlasting, even after the plane crashes if that is what happens in our path. So fear is dispelled by faith, poverty or illness is made bearable through faith that even in this life, if we are not able to overcome these challenges our spirit or soul is learning and growing from this experience to carry into the next. How do I know there is a next? Well. I have faith and my faith allows me to believe this.

sum-n-a-bitch!,

That sounds like circular reasoning to me.

Believing in something that is observably wrong isn't a sign of true faith, it is a symptom of mental illness. There is absolutely no reason to believe that any of the fantastical things written in a holy text actually happened, because there is zero evidence of them ever existing. They are works of fiction, and nothing more than wishful thinking. Religious thinking cannot bear the light of rational scrutiny.

Your faith will avail you little, because it is rooted in a lie.

I have faith that fi there was a "god" he/they/it would not allow the suffering or the agony that is put upon folks here on earth. The god you all talk about is certainly not mine, nor is the organized religious zealots who abound everywhere......

You want to help balance the budget, TAX religion....Every notice they own the nicest properties and have no debt.....reason for that.

Pretty sure the myth of "god" is over thanks to education, the internet and common sense.

Oh its a wonderful life alright, but it is what we make of it, not what is bestowed on me. I will put my chances on me everytime. Merry Christmas....(oh Christmas is actually in May I believe, but what the heck)

Hydra: I've been dead once. It was liberating. And in many ways I was dead for a long time spiritually (and never really understood the experience until later in life). I really liked what sum a bitch said. We do have free will, GOD does not do bad things to people. Life happens. How we handle it is the key. When things go wrong, I have discovered my own self-will is usually the reason. But when I am open to my higher power, whom I chose to call GOD, when I pay attention to what is his will for me, great things have happened. His will does not come as a bolt of lightening or movie special effects. It is often much more subtle. When I dropped all of my per-conceived notions of GOD, heaven, hell and happiness, my life has gotten better than I could every imagine.

This is one of my favorite movies of all time I watch it at least 5 times a year to remind myself what life should be about. Loving, caring and sharing. I wish all the GOP would identify themselves in this movie too Old MR. Potter the Republican hero.

Those who say there is no God - have their word only to say there is no God.

Those who say there is a God - have their word to say there is one. But believers in God are supported by a complex universe and incredibly intelligently created world of plants, animals and humans that think and reason enough to ponder this question. Such denotes there is a God or as Einstein reasoned a superior intelligence by design.

Belief goes both ways. I'll believe in what makes better sense.

Zen-Hydra, I'll remember to pray for you, oh ye of little faith. Seek and ye shall find, may the lord be with you always.

Zen-hydra. I'm not sure if you believe what you're saying or simply attempting to get a reaction. Either way, I hope you find your way into therapy to deal with whatever or whoever hurt you to the point of desparation. It's a sad thing to have no hope, in this life or the next.

I hope you find a way to fill the emptiness. Don't be surprised if you find yourself crying out for somethiing bigger than yourself when you come to the end of this life.

When Zen-hydra dies, they will put on his toombstone - All dressed up, and no place to go.

Hey zen, what if you are wrong. Almost every person who was deemed dead, and came back, was pissed off at being brought back. " Why did you do that? Why didn't you leave me alone?" If there is nothing, what were thay pissed about. And all describe "the greatest peace" they have ever known.

I am not afraid of deqth, but i have preferences about how I would like to die. In my sleep, making love with Reba, or several other ladies I admire. That's a death worth dying.

It doesn't prove anything in an afterlife either. There is no evidence whatsoever of such.

Zen-Hydra

I notice you spend a lot of time saying there is no proof of an afterlife but don't really offer any solid evidence there is nothing after you die either. Until we get someone to die and come back with proof one way or the other, no one can say for certain what happens. There is cosmic justice. The universe is the great leveler. No one escapes the universe and the fact that all things end. Ya can't see germs and until someone saw them in a microscope, no one belived in them either. How's that for cosmic justice? Never underestimate the things that you can't see. Doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist. I'm not into organized religion but I do lean towards Buddhism or Daoism because it makes sense. We live on a very tiny speck of dust in a remote part of our galaxy among larger bodies and phenomena that are beyond our ability to explain, know or understand. String theory hasn't been cracked and now we are finding Einstein was partially wrong in his theories. That might explain why the string theorists could never make the link to Relativity! Isn't this unknown messiness great?! I love it! Embrace not knowing. If you are patient, you might find out for sure and the rest of us will never know.

zen-hydra, that movie always makes me cry. I have always thought it was about feelings,(all feelings) faith, hope and trust. One of my all time favorite movies.

Well Zen if you are right then you are not out anything but if we are right then you lose everything that is a pretty big gamble. I would look into it some more since you don't have that long on this earth and eternity is so long.

Well that was an interesting thread. But then nonsensical religous notions are always very entertaining. I love you people that hold on to something that has ZERO evidence, that is a fable told by man to control other men. It's very entertaining. One and done folks. Make the best of your life here and stop this bs about the afterlife. That idea alone is responsible for more suffering than can be counted here in your only life.

gp65, I've heard that line over and over and over and the answer is you are always wrong. Putting all your time into something that doesn't exist is wasting a life you have now, the only one. Oh, don't expect me to respond to any of you religions nutbags, you're all brainwashed and nothing can be done to help you. You lack critical thinking skills and unless someday it clicks in your brain all by yourself from actual learning and paying attention to reality and REAL evidence and not going to Sunday services that feed you lies it will never change. Feel free to go on your religous rants, I've grown up in it, I've learned to actually think and not place fear into my life over something that will not come about. If I should be wrong I invite all of you to visit me in that supposed hell place and laugh and point fingers at me. LOL. OMG, but what if I'm wrong?!

RE: message# 8.3, by Zen Hydra

Question: If you had cancer, would you solely pray to be miraculously cured, or would you seek a cure through modern medicine?

Over the years there have been many studies regarding prayer and healing. Such studies do not answer HOW prayer works, but there does appear to be a correlation between faith & prayer and faster, more thorough recovery. Maybe it's just due to positive thinking or a hopeful outlook? Whatever the case might be, I have never seen a single report about the NEGATIVE effects of prayer on treatment.

So, here's an even better question: If your ill child was receiving the best care modern medicine has to offer, but was still in a critical situation, would you not pray if there was even the slightest possibility that it would help?

It doesn't have to be science OR faith. In fact, many people think they go hand in hand.

Zero is all there is Woofa... from hence
And Zen, You is not your flesh, for much you may look, you will not find yourself there, not all is "Matter" and that which is that carries you is just a journey (take the growth and use it, don't waste it)...
Try expanding your perception limitations, as where life is and what... The executive is not Biochemical but Electromagnetic "particle" assemblies which on own are not unlike self writing, in execution, memory drives (computers), if maybe a tad more "in time" what you know and are yet to discover...
We live on...

Mozy--Did you think you said something?

Intersting reading different thoughts but one thing is glaringly similar with all posters in this string; faith. Zen and Woof have faith there is nothing after this plane of existence while others have faith there is. Even while debating both sides of a single coin (faith) there is the belief by both sides in the coin. Suggestion: how about you kids agree that you have faith, it doesn't matter in what, so you have that in common? With commonality there can be progress. This is something all political nutbags, especially the clowns we elect to represent us, as well as religious nutbags (from every spectrum including atheists), could stand to learn which is to focus on what ties us together instead of what makes us different. It is rare when I have a conversation with anyone that I cannot find we hold some similar beliefs, inspite of some disparate beliefs, so I choose to focus on common ground to build a positive relationship.

OK, I doubt that any of the posters that addressed me are still watching this thread, but I will reply anyway.

Libradad - Any "death" you may have experienced was nothing more than "clinical death" (i.e. your pulse and respiration had a long pause). Since you are posting to a forum it is clear that you did not suffer from "brain death", which is the permanent one. We are our bodies, and when the brain dies, so do we. I am glad that you managed to survive such a harrowing experience, but looking to religion for answers is a dead end. You say you've dropped ALL of your preconceived notions about god, heaven, and hell. Does that include the high likelihood that none of those things exist?

Can you (or anyone) present evidence that god, spirits, souls, or an afterlife exist? No, I don't think so. If you could there would be no skeptics. No sane person disputes that gravity is real, even if we can't see it, hear it, or taste it. We know it exists because we can observe its effects, and measure them. Where is the observable presence of god (or angels, demons, heaven, hell)?

There isn't one, because god only exists within the minds of men(and women). The same biological mechanism in our brains that enables us to deduce and attribute the source of threats in our environment led to the creation of religion. Our early ancestors didn't understand what caused storms, earthquakes, and other forces of nature, and their brains incorrectly assumed that some powerful sapient entity must be the cause. They then thought that such beings could be appeased by offerings of material goods and services. Religion started as a means of understanding the world around us, but we know better nowadays. Zeus doesn't cast lightning bolts at the wicked, because we know that lightning is a static electricity discharge created by an ionized atmosphere/surface interaction.

We are no longer ignorant, bronze-age agrarians, and there is no excuse for clinging to the silly notions that those people had about the nature of the universe. Would you let a doctor diagnose your illness based on the state of your humours? No, you wouldn't, and that is because we now know that the biology of our bodies doesn't function in the manner imagined by Galen (or Hippocrates).

Rick from Texas - Your reasoning isn't supported. The complexity of the universe ≠ proof of intelligent design. Denying evolution is about as sane as denying cellular replication (or the Holocaust). Evolution is a "theory" in the same manner that Newton's Laws of Motion are, and that is because science doesn't use the term “fact”. Scientific laws - are the way things work, to the best of our current understanding (always with a caveat). They are subject to change when/if we discover a more complete/correct answer. This is true of every scientific law, with no exception. Science is self-correcting, and holds no sacred cows.

Einstein was an atheist. Deists need to quit trying to co-opt him. Anytime he was directly asked about belief in a god he would flatly reject such a notion. Deists seem to latch onto a couple remarks he made (out of proper context), and hold these out as proof that Albert Einstein played for their team. Do some research. Einstein didn't believe in god, and any references to a "god" in any given quote was nothing more than waxing poetic about the nature of the universe.

Grandma J-1074318 – I don’t mind if that is how you wish to spend your time. I have plenty of faith in things that are real, and have a meaningful impact on the world in which we live. You tell me “Seek and ye shall find”, and the truth of that statement is that I sought truth, and found that it wasn’t to be found in any religion. Without bias, I’ve spent most of my life (since around age 11) trying to understand my place in the universe, and because I was open to answers outside of my comfort-zone I came to realize that god was nothing more than an outdated concept.

Who wouldn’t love for there to be an all-knowing, all-forgiving parental-figure to protect us when we are scared and love us when we are lonely?

Who isn’t afraid of dying, and all that we are ending like the snuffing of a candle flame?

The hard truth is that wanting something to be so, even believing in it with all of your might, doesn’t make it true.

The world is a scary place, but it is also beautiful and wondrous. It doesn’t require the presence of a god to be so. Underneath the poly-fiber blended cloths, the smart phones, and media streams, we are still the same people that once-upon-a-time huddled

Helena8 – I do indeed believe what I am saying, and I am no forum troll.

Why would you infer that I am either desperate, sad, or hopeless (I am none of those things)?

Allow me to share a secret with you, one that I am sure that most religiously minded people hate to hear.

I don’t believe in god (or an afterlife), and I am not empty inside. I am not fundamentally different than I was as a Christian. My life doesn’t lack meaning without the influence of imaginary friends. To the contrary, I find that life is more meaningful because it is finite. I am no less moral than I was as a Christian, because morality has existed outside of religion since the advent of civilization. I share my life with family and friends, just like I did as a Christian.

To paraphrase a quote by Stephen Roberts: Both you and I are atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the gods of other religions, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

When things go well for my family I understand the cause to be the result of my actions, another’s actions, or random chance. The same holds true when bad things happen. They aren’t the result of angels, demons, or gods.

I understand that bad people often get to live long, happy lives, while good people often live short, painful ones. There is no cosmic justice in store for the wicked, and no rewards for the just when they die. We are functions of our biology. Nothing more (or less) than biological machines, and when machines break they cease to function. There is no heaven for broken IPads.

Zen Hydra,

I get where you are coming from, I really do. You seek empirical evidence, not just spiritual motivations. While I don't think that anyone is going to be able to hand you something as solid as a face to face with the Almighty, I think that there is one particular avenue that you may find at least intriguing.

We have records of Jesus of Nazareth, and it is pretty well accepted that he is an historical figure. These records include not only those of Holy texts, but also of secular or at least "non-christian" origins (Josephus for example). So, with an established ground of there having been someone who was called Jesus of Nazareth, the question becomes: "Who was he, really?"

For the answer to that, we have to look to the most reliable sources of data that we have. In this case, it would actually be the Gospels. Now, I know that right about here the hackles start to rise, but the reason I say this is not to thump over the head with biblical text, but rather because they are the most accurate record that we have. I will deal with that question of accuracy in two parts:

First, textually the accuracy of the books are well documented. To keep this section from becoming a novel, we'll just summarize it by pointing out that though they are about two thousand years old and have been passed down and copied more times than one can know, whenever an older copy is found and compared with our current version of the texts, the result is spot on with minor (if any) variations.

Second, we have to ask, "How do we know that what was stated in those books is actually what this man was like?" To this I would say we would need to look to the authors and see what they really felt to be true of this man. Again, in the effort to keep this post from reaching epic length, I'll summarize by saying that they underwent imprisonment (for years), torture, derision, and even martyrdom (which are verifiable from outside sources as well). The end result is that these men believed what they were saying even in the face of horrible cost for doing so.

So then, that leaves a few logical conclusions for us about these men. They were either liars, delusional, classically insane, fooled, or right. And of course, all that we are looking at for these men point to Jesus himself since he is the source. Either he was a liar, delusional, classically insane, or he really was who he said he was. Examining the evidence, only the last choice makes sense.

By all means, look into this yourself if you are truly sincere about finding evidence. "Test all things, hold fast to that which is good."

Of course, if you are not sincere, then hopefully this post will find someone who is. :)

Oldman young eyes – I am having a difficult time deciphering your comment. I will address the parts I find intelligible.

I won’t mind what my family decides to put on my T-O-M-B-S-T-O-N-E, because I will be beyond caring. I hope to engender as much love and respect from my friends and family as I can during my life. In doing so, I will leave as good a legacy as anyone can hope to have. The only immortality we have is through the passing of our genes to our children, and through the passing of our ideas, and memories to those we interact with. Even those things will one day pass from the earth. The matter and energy that comprise me will continue until the heat-death of the universe (and probably beyond that), but when my brain dies they stop being me. I am a supremely complex biological machine, but any number of problems with my brain could change who I am on a fundamental level. I could have a stroke, and awake to find that I suddenly prefer the same sex, or that I have millions of worms under my skin, or that my spouse of 15 years is a stranger. These things are possible because who I am is fundamentally tied to the biology of my brain and body, and not some immortal soul. If we have souls apart from our biology, why is it possible for a man (or woman) to be a good and lawful person, and after experiencing a brain tumor, to become a cold blooded killer (e.g. Charles Whitman)? The schizophrenic aren’t possessed by demons, they are people with malfunctioning brains. Where is their free will? What is the state of their supposed souls?

Ciara from Midwest – Your reasoning doesn’t work. One cannot prove the absence of something. I will prove to you that there is no afterlife when you can prove to me that Zeus, Mickey Mouse, and the tooth fairy aren’t real. Any flimsy argument you can make for the existence of an afterlife can be made for any number of silly notions. If there is a heaven, then there must also be a Big, Rock-Candy Mountain, or Happy Hunting Ground, or Valhalla, or Xenu’s Death Star, or Celestial Barbie Dream House®.

You claim there is cosmic justice. Where is it? Is it in the starving African AIDS babies? Is it in the fabulously wealthy board of the De Beers monopoly?

Nope, and that is because it exists as nothing more than wishful thinking.

How do you figure germs to be any sort of cosmic justice? Germs kill without reason, or discriminations. Understanding how germs operate, or the ignorance thereof, in no way rewards the just or punishes the wicked.

If you have some actual science that you would like to use to back up any of your spurious claims, I implore you to please cite them.

Gp65 – I’ll play along for the sake of argument. If I am wrong about the existence of a god and an afterlife, then my fate will depend upon the nature of the being doing the judging.

If this being can view the contents of my character and judge me accordingly, then I fear no fair comparison of me to any other person. I am better than some, and no worse than most.

If this being is a wrathful douche (the kind that puts people to endless torture on a technicality) then I really wouldn’t want to spend eternity with them anyway. I would take comfort in knowing that I stood up to a cosmic bully.

This of course is nothing more than playful speculation though, because there are no gods or afterlives.

Kungfu_amanda2 – Those prayer studies you mention are more-often-than-not bad science, funded by religiously affiliated organizations. Actual studies on the effects of prayer show that those who know they are being prayed for (and are believers themselves) receive benefits comparable to placebo. Prayer on the behalf of patients who are not aware that they are being prayed for show results that fall into statistic margins of error. So, in truth, science describes to us that prayer can have at best an effect comparable to a placebo. Please do yourself a favor and check your facts. Don’t let someone spoon-feed you their version of the truth, and instead feed yourself with knowledge.

Science and religion are incompatible ways of thinking. Religious thinking requires one to subdue their own reason and accept a magical world-view. Scientific thinking requires the critical analysis of the observable world, with no place for superstition or magic. Religion holds doggedly to outdated notions of how the universe operates. Science constantly works to invalidate old notions, and replace them with more complete understanding.

If my child were critically ill, I would be as distraught as any other parent, but I know that asking imaginary friends to help is no more useful than giving my child a sugar pill.

whowhatwhenwherewhy-318495 – Nice, pointless comment. “Why can’t we all just get along?”

The problem is that religion is a poison meme. It is a social virus, that sickens and kills the host. Religion promotes ignorance, and prejudice, and tries to hide these things with pretty platitudes and purple prose.

That is why I am no longer satisfied with being an atheist, and consider myself instead to be an anti-theist. I will not stand idly by and let my species continue down this dead-end path. Our childhood must end, or our species will end.

It sounds like hyperbole, but history shows it to be true. Religion has done more to hold back human advancement than even disease has. We must break the cycle of ignorance. To co-opt a Christian saying, it is time to put away childish things. In this case, those things are the imaginary comforts of religion.

Zychan – You claim to “get” where I’m coming from, but your post demonstrates the contrary. I’m not some fence sitting, “doubting Thomas” that only needs the Truth® revealed him to jump onto the band wagon. You presume that I am coming from a place of ignorance, when the truth is that I know too much to believe in such things. I was born in the South (of the US), and then grew up in the Midwest. I was brought up by “good, god fearing folk”. I was never abused by a religious figure, and the only physical trauma I ever suffered as a result of religion was a numb back-side (from hard wooden pews). Despite the best efforts of my family, around the age of 11 I became curious about the truths that Christianity (and other religions) claimed told about the nature of life, and the cosmos.

My explorations in science taught me that we, modern humans, have a much different understanding of how the universe functions than the ignorant people of the past.

My explorations into anthropology and linguistics taught me that the Jews and the god they worship splintered off from the same group of people as the Akkadians and Canaanites, and shared a polytheistic religion that included a sky god that would be identified as Yahweh when the Jewish tribe splintered off. I also learned that Jesus Christ supposedly lived in a time known to historians as the “Age of Prophets,” and not only was Jesus not only a messiah in a veritable sea of messiahs, but most the stories and miracles associated with him were co-opted from Mithraism. Mithras (a messianic god in Zoroastrianism) did all of the things Jesus allegedly did, and was popular in the Roman empire hundreds of years before Jesus is to have lived.

My explorations into history taught me that the “historically accurate” gospels you cite where in fact written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, and by authors who not even related to the apostles of Jesus. They are instead written collections of the oral mythology of early Christendom. There are no existing primary sources for any of the books that comprise the Bible. The Christian bible was created by committee from apocryphal sources.

I’m not solely picking on Christianity though. The same types of issue came up when I studied the other religions that I looked into. Nowadays a great many people bend-over-backwards to try and rationalize the holes and fallacies. Trying over and over again to find some evidence (any evidence) to support their beliefs. So much wasted effort, and heartache, in the pursuit of a fiction. Such evidence is probably in the same vault as Joseph Smith’s golden plates, Heracles’s lion pelt, and Xenu’s laser pistol.

There probably was a man named Jesus who was executed by the Romans (the Romans kept good records of such things), but he lived and died like any other mortal. If he was alive today, he would be just another kook with a messianic cult, and most people would consider him insane (and rightfully so).

zen-hydra, I would imagine you need to lay down now to give your back a rest after waving your manly member around just to prove how big it is. An amazing thing, all this angst and anger just because the vast majority of people choose to believe in a supreme being, but you choose not to. A shame really that you totally miss the point about your faith in no supreme being the same as those who have total faith in a supreme being. Both you and them are arrogant in your desire to beat up on others until they submit to your points of view. Which is better, a bully who believes in god or a bully who doesn't? To me you're both the same. All this because a woman played a role in a movie several decades ago...

whowhatwhenwherewhy-318495 - You seem to have difficulty understanding my comments, and also appear to be projecting your own personal feelings onto me. I don't need to wave my penis, because my points are grounded in education and reason. All arguments are not equal, or valid. I will dismiss your claim that the moon is made of cheese, and just as readily dismiss your claim that an outdated, mythical figure made people out of clay. I don't attack Christians, because you will only make enemies that way. I hope to open their eyes to the deceptions they have been taught, and open their eyes to the way that modern humanity understands the universe to function.

If you aren't capable of seeing the difference between the crusader slaying the infidel and the teacher educating the ignorant, then you have other problems.

Zen-Hydra: I am glad there are people such as yourself. That is one of my many proofs that there is a God. I do not need empirical proof. I am not a religious person, there has been a great deal of damage done in those venues. They keep you in FEAR - if they didn't why would you come back each Sunday to keep funding the special bowling alley, gym, massive and ornate buildings. Why should we think that the men of the era of writing scripture were any better/righteous than we are today. I imagine there were hucksters among them that set most of this up.

But that does not mean there is no God/Designer/Higher Power - for people to choose. I would imagine that is just the way this God planned it. When I was in sales they tell you don't break cover, don't tip your hand, keep them guessing, then they will come. What better way to create interest in yourself than to keep people on their toes.

How do I know there is a God? When I watched the birth of my daughter and looked in her face, when I see the beauty of this existence, acknowledge the unconditional love of my animals, these are just a few of the many things that make me smile back at God and say, you Genius, you Magnificent Source, thank you. I could not have created these situations on my own. Each of us have had that ah-ha moment where something happened or appeared when we most needed it or least expected it. Call it Karma, luck, I chose to call it God.

I am close to the end of my trail here, but tonight I pray that My God will allow me to be present in the whatever-after to witness when you cross over and the love and radiance of God shines on your face. Peace Brother!

about that - You never actually explain how the presence of skeptics (such as myself) proves that there is a god. I am curious about your reasoning.

I am sure that watching your daughter being born was a joyous event for you (I know it was for me), but being overwhelmed by the emotional significance of the moment doesn't prove anything other than that you were deeply moved by the birth of your daughter. There are observable, biological explanations for what you experienced, and the same is true for all such "ah-ha" moments.

I can appreciate that you have taken a first step towards reason by seeing the lies and manipulation of organized religion. Do a little research, and you can find that everything attributed to a godly influence is explainable with scientific understanding. Our universe is a strange and amazing place, but it doesn't require the presence of a god to explain why things happen as they do.

Karma, luck, and gods are very different concepts from each other, but one unifying attribute that they have is that they only exist as concepts in the human mind.

Zen-Hydra

It sounds like you and I have identical life viewpoints. What many people fail to understand is that our beliefs are based on observation and credible evidence and that we don't choose our beliefs. The only thing that can alter our viewpoint is the presentation of additional verifiable information. You know this, but relligionists don't seem to get it. I have no problem with others believing as they want, as long as they don't harm others. To me, this includes teaching falsehoods to their children, but I'm not so naive that I believe this will stop. You and I are proof that this can be reversed later in life.

I will continue to live a good life, helping others to the extent that I can along the way because I know that this is the only life I will have. If you want to listen to my views, I will talk to you about them, but I will not try to push them on you. That is a discovery that each individual must make on their own.

ZenHydra - I have read for myself. I have never heard of any NEGATIVE effects of prayer in a situation where someone is under proper medical care. My point remains. Science and faith go hand in hand for many people. It does not have to be one or the other.

Personally, it seems less dogmatic and more enlightened to be respectful to both - if it is foolish to disregard science because of faith, then, to me, it is also foolish to disregard faith just because one puts stock in science.

Besides, people often become so dogmatic in their non-belief that it is indistinguishable from any of the other religions and faiths that they THINK they are too intelligent and too enlightened to fall for - at which point they are no freer than anyone else with a dogmatic belief, but they look hypocritical and silly for being so blind to their condition.

kungfu_amandua2

If you read this article http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html you will have heard of NEGATIVE effects of prayer. A study was published in 2006 that showed more negative outcomes for patients that knew they were being prayed for. No difference in effects from the control group were shown for the group that was prayed for and did not know it. Nothing fails like prayer.

Finally, someone said it.

It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts.

Actually Miker, it does. She married and had a son--lost her husband to cancer and the son to suicide. True most of us having reached such an age have sufferred many tragedies, heartaches and losses. Nonetheless, I wish for all of us a more wonderful life and fewer of life's hurts. It would be wnderful if we could all remain children and never know the realities life dishes us out and trust in simple cliches like angels and wings. Anyway,I empathize for her pain and hope she is now happier in her old age.

Actually it does what? Suggests that her life was "downright tragic?" Or, tells what she did with her life after she grew up? The article does neither. At age 71, the loss of a husband is nearly an expected event; hardly something that makes one's life "downright tragic." I'll grant that the loss of a child - to suicide, no less - is indeed downright tragic, but I won't agree that it makes one's entire life "downright tragic." Surely there was some upside to this woman's life that the article could have at least touched on. But, it didn't. Which, I agree, does tend to make her life seem "downright tragic." But, I suspect that is simply not accurate.

Wow! Finally someone that can provide us with the definitive answer regarding what happens after life. I always find it humorous when people (religious or atheist) can tell us what happens after we die. By the way, I think some of us probably noted the anti-religious tone of the article as well as your comment. Got it. Thanks again for answering everyone's eternal question! Now I can sleep tonight.

Stated humming that tune as I was reading your post Blue Moon. I watch this movie every Christmas Eve night with a quart of egg nog. LOVE IT!!! But I believe the tune goes this way:

Buffalo Gal, won't you come out tonight

Or it may be Girl, but I am pretty sure it's not Bill. The rest is right on.

My favorite scene: George and Mary standing next to each other talking on the phone to Sam Wainwright, and trying not to succumb to their passion for one another.

Classic scene!

As a little girl Mary whispered to George in his bad ear in the drug store that she would "love him til the day she dies".

If every man could be so lucky in life, what a wonderful life it would actually be.